A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada ( Fundador Acarya de ISKCON)

2.3.09

Entrevista con profesores ( 2ª parte )

Conversación con Srila Prabhupada.
Dios es perfecto, pero usted se ha vuelto imperfecto por usar mal su independencia. Dios es completamente independiente. Usted es parte y porción de Dios. Por lo tanto, usted tiene esa cualidad de independencia. Cuando no la usa bien, se vuelve malo; cuando la usa apropiadamente, usted sigue siendo bueno. Conversación con Srila Prabhupada Todo lo ha creado Dios Entrevista con profesores Caracas, 19 de febrero de 1975 Segunda parte Prabhupada: ¿Por qué no? Su opinión y la del perro son la misma. Profesor: Bien, anteriormente usted estaba diciendo... Prabhupada: No. Al perro no le importa si él es o no el propietario del cuerpo. Así que, si a mí no me importa, ¿cuál es la diferencia entre el perro y yo? Profesor: La diferencia entre el perro y el hombre es muy poca, sólo que el hombre puede razonar. Prabhupada: Usted dice que es muy poca; pero nosotros decimos que no existe tal diferencia, a menos que tenga este conocimiento trascendental. Profesor: Pero los perros tienen conocimiento. Prabhupada: Sí, para comer, dormir, ocuparse del sexo y defenderse. Todo el mundo tiene ese conocimiento. El perro lo tiene y usted también. ¿Pero cuál es la diferencia entre usted y el perro? En su vida, usted puede alcanzar la trascendencia. El perro no puede hacerlo. Eso lo hace distinto del animal. Profesor: ¿Cómo puede estar seguro de eso? ¿Ha estado en la mente de un perro? Prabhupada: No es necesario, porque el perro está ocupado en sus necesidades corporales. Y si usted hace lo mismo, entonces ¿cuál es la diferencia entre usted y el perro? Profesor: ¿Por qué esa diferencia es tan importante para usted? Prabhupada: No, fundamentalmente la pregunta debería ser, ¿cuál es la diferencia? El perro se la pasa todo el día buscando comida, y si usted también está preocupado por encontrar su alimento, entonces ¿cuál es la diferencia entre ambos? Profesor: Debido a que no soy este cuerpo, por lo tanto no me importa si soy el propietario de este cuerpo o no lo soy. Prabhupada: Tan pronto como decida que no es este cuerpo, es trascendental a este cuerpo, entonces tiene que entender cuál es la naturaleza trascendental, cuál es su ocupación y qué es lo que debe hacer. En la actualidad, debido a que me identifico con este cuerpo, estoy ocupado con este concepto corporal de la vida. Pero cuando entienda que “yo no soy este cuerpo”, eso se llama el estado brahma-bhutah, aham brahmasmi, “yo soy Brahman”. Ese es el comienzo del verdadero conocimiento. Profesor: Esa es la razón por la cual no me importa qué le pase a este cuerpo, no porque haya una diferencia entre el perro y el hombre o cualquier otra cosa. Prabhupada: Incluso si a usted le importe o no, igualmente las leyes de la naturaleza actuarán. Profesor: Correcto. Prabhupada: Eso es lo que decimos. Ahora usted ha obtenido este cuerpo humano, y la naturaleza puede ofrecerle un cuerpo no muy deseable en la siguiente vida. Entonces, ¿qué hará usted? Profesor: No me importa si obtengo este cuerpo u otro, incluso si es el de un perro, de todas formas, seguiré siendo el mismo. Prabhupada: Está bien. A usted no le preocupa, pero hay personas que se estremecerían si le dicen que el próximo cuerpo que tendrán será el de un perro. Profesor: ¿Cuál es el principio de la evolución? Si estamos evolucionando, ¿cómo es posible que obtengamos un cuerpo de perro en la próxima vida, o algo inferior? ¿Dónde está el progreso? Prabhupada: Existe evolución por la ley de la naturaleza, del perro al lobo, del lobo a otro cuerpo, y así sucesivamente. Existe una ley. De esa manera gradual se llega a la forma humana. En esa forma hay oportunidad de autorrealizarse. Pero si en la forma humana de vida, la persona no se comporta como un ser humano —se comporta como perros y gatos— obtiene nuevamente un cuerpo de perro o de gato. Así que, si por sus actividades se degrada, entonces pasarán millones de años hasta alcanzar nuevamente la forma humana de vida. Por lo tanto, la persona inteligente debe ser muy cuidadosa. Él no debería decir, “no me importa”. Esa es una vida muy arriesgada. Profesor: Yo creo que no todo el mundo está buscando a Dios, pero se le debe preguntar a la gente si quiere ser diferente a lo que son. Necesitamos algo práctico, no simplemente algo de fe. Prabhupada: Por eso digo que cualquier cosa práctica está en El Bhagavad-gita. Pregunte lo que quiera y encontrará allí la respuesta. Profesor: Alguien dirá que la Biblia dice lo mismo. Prabhupada: Sí. Sigan la Biblia, ello está bien. El problema es que no la siguen. Esa es la dificultad. Profesor: En este mundo todos somos muy limitados, estamos como prisioneros, y cuantas más leyes sigamos, más nos esclavizamos. Prabhupada: No, no más leyes. Si está hablando de la Biblia, siga simplemente la ley dada en la Biblia. La Biblia dice, “No matarás”. ¿Por qué la están desobedeciendo? Si usted no sigue eso, entonces no es un espiritualista; es un ignorante. Profesor: En otras palabras, ¿toda la humanidad es ignorante? Prabhupada: Sí. De lo contrario, ¿por qué existe la Biblia? Profesor: Usted dijo que hay que acercarse a una persona perfecta, pero eso implica que tenemos que aceptar muchas restricciones, y eso es realmente imposible. Prabhupada: Entonces es imposible para usted volverse un hombre perfecto. Profesor: ¿Por qué el conocimiento debe ser limitado? Prabhupada: No, no es limitado; es ilimitado. Pero para llegar a lo ilimitado, tiene que trascender sus concepciones materiales. Profesor: He visto aquí sólo hombres, ¿quiere decir eso que las mujeres no pueden llegar a ser trascendentales? Prabhupada: ¿Por qué no? Hay muchas mujeres. El conocimiento no está restringido a los hombres. Está abierto para todos. Eso se declara en El Bhagavad-gita (9.32) mam hi partha vyapasritya ye ’pi syuh papa-yonayah striyo vaisyas tatha sudras te ‘pi yanti tatha sudras ¡Oh, hijo de Prtha!, aquellos que se refugian en Mí, aunque sean de baja estirpe—las mujeres, los vaisyas [los comerciantes] y los sudras [los trabajadores]—, pueden dirigirse hacia el destino supremo. Está disponible a todo el mundo. Tal como en la universidad. La universidad no está limitada a una cierta clase. Está abierta para todos. Todos pueden ir y aprender. Similarmente, la prisión está abierta para todos. Usted decide si quiere ir a la universidad o a la cárcel. Profesor: ¿Cómo uno puede superar su conocimiento limitado si está habituado a la vida material? Prabhupada: El hábito puede ser cambiado. Así como nadie está acostumbrado a fumar desde el principio de su vida, pero por la compañía él aprende a fumar. Y de nuevo, por buena asociación, puede abandonarlo. Estos muchachos, americanos, europeos, estaban habituados a muchas cosas malas. Y ahora las han abandonado. Profesor: ¿Cómo podemos saber qué es bueno y qué es malo? Prabhupada: Cuando se acerque a lo bueno, entenderá qué es bueno. Cuando se acerque a lo malo, comprenderá qué es malo. Profesor: No entiendo. Prabhupada: Suponga que hay una clase de ladrones y una clase de hombres honestos. Si se asocia con los ladrones, aprenderá a robar. Los ladrones, saben que la gente los odia, la policía los arresta y los pone en la cárcel. Ellos también saben eso. Pero debido que están habituados, no pueden dejarlo. Profesor: Robar es relativo. Algunas personas roban porque ven televisión, otras lo hacen porque tienen hambre o necesitan algo. Prabhupada: Bien, pero ante la ley, cuando se va a la corte, si alguien roba un diamante y si otro roba algo insignificante, le dan seis meses de prisión. El juez no hace concesiones a quien ha robado una cosa insignificante. “Usted ha robado, debe ir a prisión”. Al que ha robado el diamante, también le sucede lo mismo. Robar es robar. No importa que se robe un diamante o una pequeña fruta. El castigo es el mismo para el ladrón de diamantes y para quien roba algo insignificante. Esa es la ley. Profesor: Aún no comprendo cómo pueden decir que una acción es mala o buena. Usted menciona el ejemplo de los ladrones, pero ello implica que había previamente una norma para establecer que “esto es bueno, y esto es malo”. Ahora quiero saber cómo puedo definitivamente conocer qué es bueno y qué es malo. Prabhupada: Volverse consciente de Dios es bueno, y todo lo demás es malo. Dios es bueno. Por lo tanto, si tiene conciencia de Dios, usted es bueno, y si carece de conciencia de Dios, entonces usted es malo. Profesor: ¿Dios ha creado al hombre? Prabhupada: Sí. Todo lo ha creado Dios. Dios ha creado al hombre, al perro, a los semidioses. Dios ha creado todo. Profesor: Él nos ha hecho imperfectos. Prabhupada: No. Él no es imperfecto. Profesor: No, Dios nos ha hecho imperfectos. Prabhupada: No, usted se lo buscó. Así como si usted roba va a la cárcel. Eso no significa que el juez es imperfecto; usted es imperfecto. Profesor: ¿Dios no nos ha creado imperfectos? Prabhupada: No, lo que ha creado Dios es perfecto, pero usted se ha vuelto imperfecto por usar mal su independencia. Dios es completamente independiente. Usted es parte y porción de Dios. Por lo tanto, usted tiene esa cualidad de independencia. Cuando no la usa bien, se vuelve malo; cuando la usa apropiadamente, usted sigue siendo bueno. Profesor: ¿Cómo nos volvemos malos? Prabhupada: La Biblia existe para indicarle como volverse bueno. Si no lo hace, entonces se vuelve malo. La Biblia dice: “No matarás”. Si no mata, entonces usted es bueno. Si mata, es malo. Profesor: No hay garantía de conocimiento perfecto, porque en una ocasión teníamos conocimiento. Porque como usted dijo, lo hemos dejado. Por lo tanto... Prabhupada: No, usted no ha usado bien el conocimiento perfecto. Aquí hay conocimiento perfecto; la Biblia dice, “No matarás”. Pero usted lo ignora y mata. Esa es su falta. Profesor: Quiero saber si nacemos buenos y después aprendemos las cosas malas. Prabhupada: Mientras tengamos un cuerpo material, usted nace bueno o malo, pero cuando no obtenga un cuerpo material, y esté en su cuerpo espiritual, eso es realmente bueno. Profesor: Nadie puede nacer malo, pero por el contacto con la humanidad se vuelve malo. Prabhupada: Entonces haga que la humanidad se vuelva buena. Profesor: Si yo no molesto ni le hago daño a nadie, entonces eso siempre estará bien. Prabhupada: Eso es lo que usted cree, pero la autoridad piensa diferente. Profesor: Bueno, eso no lo sé. Prabhupada: Entonces ese es su error. Así como el hombre que no conoce la ley, pero eso no es una excusa. Profesor: Puedo aceptar que el hombre haya nacido perfecto, aunque su desarrollo sea imperfecto. Lo que no puedo aceptar es que haya nacido imperfecto. Prabhupada: Nosotros no decimos eso. Por eso se le aconseja al hombre que se asocie con alguien perfecto para que mantenga su perfección. Profesor: El problema es que existen muchos millones de personas, pero hay pocas personas perfectas. Prabhupada: Una persona perfecta es suficiente para enseñar a miles de personas imperfectas. Profesor: Sí, usted tiene razón, por ejemplo Buda y Cristo, a quienes muchas personas los siguen. Prabhupada: Ellos son perfectos, pero los seguidores no siguen sus instrucciones. Eso no significa que Buda y Cristo sean imperfectos. Profesor: Pienso que el contacto con una persona no es suficiente, porque como usted dijo, muchas personas cambian las enseñanzas. Prabhupada: Por lo tanto, tiene que conservar el conocimiento original en perfecto orden, sin ninguna interpretación. Profesor: Le agradezco por haberme explicado tantas cosas. Prabhupada: Nuestra petición es que estudie este movimiento de conciencia de Krishna y trate de apoyarlo. Profesor: Usted ha dicho que se tienen que abandonar ciertos hábitos, como no fumar y otras cosas, pero ¿es cierto que ésta no es la última meta de la trascendencia? Prabhupada: No, no lo es, pero ese es el proceso para llegar a ella. Profesor: ¿Puede alguien de afuera, que no siga esas prácticas, alcanzar la perfección? Prabhupada: Tal vez, pero es un caso muy excepcional. Profesor: Buda alcanzó la perfección sin unirse a ninguna religión particular, Él simplemente leyó y escuchó las diferentes filosofías. Supongo que ese es realmente el proceso. Prabhupada: Su religión fue cambiarse a sí mismo. Profesor: Hay una historia. Cuando Buda iba a abandonar su cuerpo, Él dijo que se consideraba a sí mismo imperfecto. Prabhupada: Sí, esa es la grandeza de Buda. Debido a que los seguidores son imperfectos, Él no podía decirles más de lo que ellos pudieran entender. Por eso dijo: “Yo Soy imperfecto”. Su misión fue detener la matanza de animales. Pero la gente estaba muy acostumbrada a matar animales, así que Él no les habló acerca de cosas más elevadas que no pudieran entender. Para ellos, si podían detener la matanza de animales, eso era la perfección. Para un estudiante elemental, si entiende que dos más dos son cuatro, esa es la perfección. Eso no significa que no haya Matemática superior. A menos que se entienda que hay que sentir compasión por los animales, dejando de comerlos, uno no puede entender los temas espirituales. Profesor: El comer carne es otro de mis problemas. Prabhupada: Eso no es un problema; se trata de práctica. Si viene aquí diariamente, aprenderá en una semana. Profesor: ¿Cada noche? Prabhupada: Sí. Podemos ofrecerles cientos de preparaciones vegetarianas. Les pido que vengan cada domingo y celebren la fiesta con nosotros. Profesor: Por ejemplo, si yo comí carne hoy, ¿pierdo mi oportunidad de iluminación? Prabhupada: No, no la pierde. Escuche de quien esté iluminado. Entonces se iluminará y comprenderá, y automáticamente dejará de comer carne. Por eso debemos oír a quien esté iluminado. Eso es lo primero. Las otras cosas no son inmediatamente necesarias. Incluso aunque no pueda dejar de comer carne, oiga de quien posee conocimiento. Profesor: ¿Este yogurt que me han dado lo hacen ustedes? Son unos especialistas. Deberían embotellarlo y hacer “Yogurt Hare Krishna”. Prabhupada: Eso sería bueno. Porque cantarán Hare Krishna y eso tendrá algún efecto. Hare Krishna es una vibración trascendental y cualquiera que lo cante obtendrá un beneficio. Profesor: ¿Quién le da a los devotos el mantra? ¿El maestro espiritual? Prabhupada: Sí, el maestro espiritual. Profesor: ¿Hay una ceremonia? Prabhupada: No, usted puede cantar sin necesidad de ceremonia. No hay ninguna perdida. Puede cantar Hare Krishna y sentir el efecto. Profesor: Los he visto en Nueva York y en Londres, y una cosa que me ha llamado la atención es que dondequiera que los veo, sus caras están muy satisfechas. Prabhupada: Usted es inteligente. Profesor: Incluso aunque es algo externo, refleja que adentro hay algo especial. Prabhupada: Eso me lo preguntó un sacerdote. Yo iba de Los Angeles a Hawai. El sacerdote estaba vestido de civil. Él se acercó y me dijo: “Swamiji, ¿puedo hablar con usted?” Yo le dije que sí. Lo primero que me preguntó fue, “¿cómo es que sus discípulos lucen tan bien y llenos de conciencia espiritual?”. Esa fue su primera pregunta. Todo tiene un proceso. Si adoptamos el proceso, obtendremos el resultado. Profesor: ¿Cómo financian este movimiento? Prabhupada: Por la gracia de Krishna. Krishna nos envía el dinero. Gastamos cerca de 1.000.000 de dólares al mes. Lo obtenemos especialmente por vender estos libros. La venta de nuestros libros está aumentando. En la actualidad, vendemos 50.000 copias de estos libros mensualmente. En los Estados Unidos, todas las universidades, profesores y eruditos, nos hacen pedidos: “Envíenlos tan pronto como los publiquen”. Profesor: ¿En qué parte del mundo tienen más seguidores? Prabhupada: En Norteamérica. Pero ahora hemos venido a Sudamérica. Profesor: Vi al movimiento Hare Krishna en la televisión inglesa, y hubo una entrevista con el dirigente del movimiento Hare Krishna de allí, ellos cantaron, bailaron e hicieron muchas otras cosas. Parece que las personas son muy receptivas al mensaje de su movimiento. Prabhupada: Sí, en todo el mundo. Incluso en África. Profesor: Pero aquí en Venezuela, he encontrado que los venezolanos, o al menos el gobierno, han sido un poco intolerantes con su gente. Prabhupada: ¿El gobierno no es tolerante? Hrdayananda M: Han sido un poco intolerantes. En el pasado hubo algunas presiones. Pero eso ya no ocurre. Prabhupada: Si alguien lee nuestros libros, entonces lo aceptará. Profesor: ¿Qué está haciendo su movimiento en India? Prabhupada: En India toda le gente es consciente de Krishna. Profesor: ¿Todo el mundo en India? Prabhupada: Sí, todo el mundo. Por naturaleza ellos son conscientes de Krishna, pero los líderes modernos, están tratando de desviar su atención. Quieren hacerlos inconscientes de Krishna. Ellos opinan que: “Si India es consciente de Krishna, se atrasará. Así que tenemos que convertirnos a la conciencia americana o a la conciencia europea”. Esa es su opinión. Profesor: Fue un gran placer que usted nos invitara... Prabhupada: Muchas gracias. Son bienvenidos cuando lo deseen. Hare Krishna. Puedes encontrar el texto original en: http://www.isvara.org/forumes/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4086

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